http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience..._sword.php

Very interesting! Love the way we think we are sooo far ahead of all other ages and yet we can't do half the things they used to do in the "olden days".

"wootz" lmao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

Yep bizzare aye, but its around.

Wow ... wherever did you find that from Max?

Errrr..

Max's brain is so inclined towards cool things that they immediately by-pass his ability to descern absolute bollocks.
I regularly exploit this.

He doesn't need to think, just look pretty. However in this instance he knows he has been caught reposting something that i posted on a different forum ... one that deals with real weapons, where carbon nano tubes aren't referring to your nan's vaccuum hose wrapped in latex and duct tape.



Q

Lol max youve been caught out, guess you need to be careful what you post now the copyright police are around! HAHAHA I DONT KNOW HOW I COME UP WITH EM!

Firstly, yes i was rumbled, Qanun as so put this up on the jomsborg forums long ago.

Secondly, I dont think its bollocks Troy I just think you're so Pedantic a Temple of Pedanticism could be errected in you're name as a deity of pedanticism.

Thirdly, Greg LOL! Its so bad its good

Simply oh law educated one... Where is the pedantry in my statment?
You sir have a magpie mind!
As established by the ministry of whimsy and caprice.
So there, and that doesn't stop it being horseshit.

T

Troy, please clarify ... what exactly do you think is bollox? The fact that scientific research proves that the arabs inadvertently were using carbon nano-tubes in their swords?

Do you have any scientific evidence to refute this or is it just a personal view?

Q.

HAHAHAHA, Troy, you're reply did make me laugh.

As to Q, yeah *I say standing behind Blaq Sun* - Go Get Em Mum!

Ok... My stand point is basically that they were using common techniques that were not unknow to other contempory smiths, but that they had access to superior material.
The creation of the nanotubes and the unusual quality of the blades was probably an accident.
Thing is... if you do something by accident, but do not know how it works or why, that's not technology or true knowledge, that's fluke.

I'm a bit jaded by weapon frothing anyway... weapons are generally good for doing what they are designed to do... thats it. Personally, until I see someone cut through a set of plate with a "damascus" blade, I will refuse to believe that any slashing weapon is superior, in defeating a crusade era european knight, to a piercing european long sword.

What you really want is a nice fractal diamond blade spear with a carbon nanotube handle... Mwahaha!

It says in the article that it was due to the fact they had access to the right ore at the right time. As soon as they lost the ore, they lost the superior swords

Adelaide Spellguard Kael d'Amberville
Amber Mage of the Malrashee
Assistant Head of the Mages Guild
Countess of Foulness
Brohn Noble: Head of House Spellguard
Wife of Mhorador Kael, High Hand of Mhaine

Precisely!
So not techology!

i cant belive this has lasted sixteen posts .

Not to get too deep into damscus steel weapons ... the technology was the ability to take the materials they had and create somethign special with it.

Once you run out of materials you run out of the ability ot make the item. However since they were doing it for a few hundred years this points not to a fluke but to a systematic methodolgy. Somethign which modern smiths with all of their hi tech have been unable to conclusively reproduce.

Whilst it is possible for modern man to create similar swords ... the actual art of creating damascus steel blades was lost and NO ONE can say for sure how they did it.

The reason they lost this technology was for a number of reasons, however major contributing factors involved a lack of the wootz ore required to create such weapons and also of new smithing techniques which were cheaper and the resulting blades almost as good as the damscus steel stuff.

No demand ... no reason to make them anymore.

This is a dumbed down version but if you really want i can give you the full 30,000 word version

I have already said that they inadvertently came across this technology and that unknowingly they were using it ... but the simple fact is that it is amazing that they did even this much.

BTW the best wootz ore came from india and high traces of vanadium, nickel and cobalt and thus points to the deposits ebing enriched by meteoric iron.

Troy you would never see a damascus steel blade cut through plate because they two were not around at the same time ... plate was used much after they stopped mass production of damascus steel blades ... i doubt that anyone whether it is a museum or a private collector would allow for their priced items to be abused in such a way.

Also you talk about the crusades era? Which crusade are you talking about? It covers about 500 years. Also please dont forget that the weapons technology of the period obviously did what it was supposed to otherwise the crusaders would not have been defeated at any point.

As for losing the superior swords ... well you run out of enriched uranium you will run out of nukes ... doesnt mean you didnt have them. As already stated the technology was overtaken by economics and thus the demand for expensive damascus steel swords reduced.

In western europe they did not have the technology that wa prevalent in the west to not only dig deeper for ore but also to have better forges and smelt at higher temps.

Western europe tended to use bog iron or iron ore that lay closer to the surface and thus was created pattern welding which is totally different to damascus steel.

Finally having actually fought against someone wearing plate armour using a sharp 2 handed sword (it was for experimental purposes) we found that it is pretty much a waste of time ... you need something that will puncture armour not hack or slash at it. A sword Vs plate is pretty pants ... give me a warhammer or a polearm of some type.

I am not saying it is not possible to kill someone using a sword vs someone in plate ... but it is far, far easier with smething that does concussive or penetrative dmg.

Troy one final point of clarification on your opinions of history etc. the techniques being used by any sword smith were zealously guarded secrets ... especially those working with wootz ... so no they werent freely available to their contemporaries. The techniques were unknown in the west and even in the east they were not common knowledge ... throughout history a smith has always been a figure of awe and respected because the knowledge is obscure.

Add: the only good blades in western europe were the frankish blades.

Anyway i am sure everyone by now is bored of this subject ... so lets move on

If you want to argue some i will put you in touch with my very good friend and sword maker Paul Binns ... he might have te time to tell you all about it ... especially if you turn up with a crate of porn

Q.
@Max ... its ok ... mummy is here

I think that my frustration is mainly based on people frothing at me about Katanas.

I agree that there is nothing like a mace or an axe to deal with someone in plate. But as a plate wearer, if you have to fight large numbers of unarmoured opponents the sword is your friend.

It'll be interesting to see if there is some way of making this steel-nanotube thing work with modern technology, might make an interesting alternative to fibre glass ect! Additionally, if the nano tubes were naturally forming, rather than a result of the smithing process, then it is probably all down to the material. It would certainly explain why the guys with duplicate chemical compositions don't get precisely the same results.
But we shall probably never know.

Katana is a great sword ... just like any other great sword ... sadly hollywood has made them mystical and that is a load of bollox.

To be precise (having fought in plate ) the best thing to take care of multiple unarmoured opponents or even lightly armoured is the hand and a half sword / claymore / bastard sword ... long enough to fight multiple opponents, short enough not to be unwieldy at close distance.

I know one czech gentleman who is known in our circles as the black cat ... simply because he has dark hair and moves like one (we might be good with weapons ... not so great with names) ... but this is his favoured weapon and he is pretty damn deadly with it. One of the few people i know who can actually do a forwards roll in full plate. Or at least 3/4 plate.

Carbon nano-tubes are already being used in modern technologies to provide strength and yet flexibility.

Troy .. sorry i dont undertsand ... logically if it were the material that was responsible for forming the nan-tubes ... anyone else with the same material would be able to replicate it.

What i am suggesting is that if you had thde right materials and the wrong skills you would get a shit sword.

I could provide you with some wootz and let you make a sword even today based upon the knowledge you could get off the internet and i am pretty sure it would be a lame sword (no disrespect) although you might surprise us all and be an uber and naturally talented smith.

Usig the same logic i could provide crappy materials to an uber smith and he would be able to bring out the best in the blade.

Let us give credit where credit is due ... smiths the world over learned their skills as apprentices usually on a one to one basis with an existing smith ... who learned it from his master and so on.

This has occured from the dawn of people smithing. Knowledge has bee acculated and passed on, some of it has been lost, some of it has been superceded. It is the same with any craftsman ... whether it be glass making, woodworking, pottery, housebuildig etc.

I respect all craftspeople because they have put in the hours and learned this skill.

Nowadays we have schools and universities who teach us some of this stuff ... but still the concept of apprenticship continues ... and knowledge taught to us one on one is better than that taught to us 30 to 1.

The sad fact is that swrods have more or less become useless in a modern age wher eyou have guns and other similar stuff.

However there are still gunsmiths and master gunsmiths who work for the companies who mass manufacture these weapons.

When i was younger my father comissioned a double barrel shotgun to be made for me ... total cost £6000 ... i could have bought one from any gun shop for £200.

This is because it was made by someone rather than one already made. I can get a shotgun off the black market for about £50. It all comes down to what is in emand.

Nowadays gns, missiles, bullets, helicopters blah blah blah are in demand ... swods are not ... sword technology has not evolved and in most cases devolved. There are still things that ancient smiths did with sword blades that modern man wonders at and cannot replicate because there are no records and we havent figure out how to do it yet.

And what makes it all the more amazing is that there was no google, no internet, no you tube ... all of this knowledge was limited to few and not freely available to the masses. Yes there were a couple of universities but nothing like we have today.

We should respect our ancestors for what they managed to create.

There is a phrase that always comes to mind when i think in terms of science ... 'Standing on the shoulders of giants'.

Anyone who can tell me what this means gets a cookie

BTW not arguing with you although i can come across a bit abrupt at times ... just enjoying a lievly discourse. Sometimes it is nice ot get to know people OC as well IC.

Q.
PS is it too late to register for your Gauntlet now that i have finished annoying you?